"Trade" and quaternary predicates.

Belle trades Beau an potato for an apple.

Languages are usually limited to only a certain number of nouns or cases. Most languages handle ditransitives, but there are still occasional verbs that seem to need four places. This is especially an issue for loglangs where arity is more firmly encoded. How does your language handle quaternary verbs ?

Common approaches

If you haven't thought about this before, here are some common approaches in case you need some inspiration. This is just optional reading for the curious.

Adpositions

This is an common approach particularly in natlangs and naturalistic languages, and is in fact the approach used in English ! Just use some relevant adposition to indicate the fourth argument. From a logical perspective, these can coordinate through the event variable.

Four cases or four nouns

Alternatively, just have enough cases for four arguments even if these verbs are rare. This is Lojban's approach. There aren't any well known quinary concepts, so this should be enough for everything.

Respective coordination

Now we get into the more loglang pedantry. Another approach is to use respective coordination. This is, coordinate the traders and the items being trade, and mark for respectivity. In English this would look something like:

Belle and Beau trade a potato and an apple respectively.

Some languages even have a respective coordinator (again, Lojban has this, though it's not used here). For example, let's pretend this was spelled "resp" in English, then:

Belle resp Beau trade a potato resp an apple.

Tuples

This similar to respective coordination, but slightly different at the type level. Instead, make the argument of "trade" two 2-tuples. Assuming you have some predicate in your language like

twople(t, a, b) ⇔ t = (a, b)

Then, you can define "trade" as

trade(traders, items) ⇔ ∃ a b x y. twople(traders, a, b) ∧ twople(items, x, y) ∧ trade'(a, b, x, y)

Then you can build the tuple with link args or subordinate clauses or something similar.

the twople of Beau and of Belle trade the twople of a potato and of an apple

Split predicates

The most complex solution is to split the predicate into two ternary predicates that coordinate through the third argument. This is, for example, one would have traders predicate with frame [c c 1] and a trade'with predicate with frame [c c c] where the first argument of trade'with is some opaque trade coordination object and traders's third argument is a unary lambda that varies in this opaque object. Then a trade would be something like:

traders Belle Beau λ x. trade'with x a potato an apple

Note we use a pseudo syntax here since we're far beyond anything English can do. Note that traders can also have frame [c c c] if the language has a way to link two arguments similar to Eberban "hinging".

Have fun

So how does your language handle this ?

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I’m curious. I couldn’t find a word for to trade in Toadua.

Searching for “exchange” yields a few different results.

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In Toki Pona, one way is:
jan en jan li esun e ijo e ijo.

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I think you meant “adposition” there?

For my Nahaıwa, I’ve oscilliated back and forth between having 3 and 4 core complement slots. I’ve recently added back the possibility of quadrivalent predicates, by giving up my previous “extended tripartite” alignment (moving to a simple, standard tripartite alignment). Prior to that I had seriously considered the possibility of using split predicates like you mentioned.

(kisuwi)

􌊙 Belle 􌊈􌊎 􌉾 􌊙 potato 􌊘 􌊙 Beau 􌊘 􌉿 􌊙 apple.

(sai Belle hari ki sai potato sa sai Beau sa ku sai apple.)

it means something like “Belle trades a potato to Beau to-in-the-other-direction an apple.”.

in kisuwi the partical 􌉿 (ku) changes giving to recieving. for example 􌊚􌊀􌊔􌊔 (awawa, to say) into 􌊚􌊀􌊔􌊔 􌉿 (awawa ku, to listen to (someone) say (something)). in this sentence, it’s used after 􌊘 (sa, meaning “in” and “to”).

Bawkalm

Bawkalm uses a mix of the tuple and split predicate approach. Quaternary predicates all use the same split predicate which just forms twoples.

'la meze Belle 'le meze Beau xu Xaj 'Oys 'la Piles 'lo Palud
ABS name foreign-quote “Belle” ERG name foreign-quote “Beau” PRED Trade Twople ABS Apple OBL Potato

Exyan

In Exyan, every stem is a case, so just use four cases.

xëdĩ yi Belle bǒdĩ yi Beau vàxĩ pämé cäjẽ tõsá
xɛl.dĩ‿ŋyi bɛl bɔɹdĩ‿ŋyi bo vaʊxĩ‿mpalmeɪ t͡salʒẽ‿ntõnsaɪ
buy.TAG quote.IND Belle sell.TAG quote.IND Beau cost.TAG apple.IND trade.TAG potato

(Properly Belle and Beau should be overlined as a quote, but Discourse doesn’t support that.)
(Also, sort of like Kilngon, Exyans don’t really have apples or potatoes. These are just rough equivalents. It is, actually, a conlang from space.)
(I’m sorry Exyan is like this. (I’m not really sorry. I’m kind of proud actually.))

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Ah, yes, oops. I’ll edit it, thank you.

For Lúnalai, I’ve been considering having “argument adverbials” of some sort, where, for example, kale is an adverb that, in the context of ejari (to trade) would be followed by the object being traded, and ahika would be an adverb for what is being gained.

These same adverbs would interact differently with other verbs, in a way that is uniquely defined for each adverb and verb.

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In the current state of my Nahaıwa:

Aıtʰáqatʰawa cañabél pañabó čʰanóko kañóq.
Aı꞊tʰáqatʰawa ↦ ᴀꜱʀᴛ꞊exchange_control
c꞊a-ña-bél p꞊a-ña-bó ↦ ᴇʀɢ꞊ɴᴛʀᵢ-named_by_sound-⟪bel⟫ ᴅᴀᴛ꞊ɴᴛʀᵢ-named_by_sound-⟪bo⟫
čʰ꞊a-nóko k꞊a-ñóq ↦ ᴄᴏᴅᴀᴛ꞊ɴᴛʀᵢ-apple ᴀᴄᴄ꞊ɴᴛʀᵢ-potato
“Belle and Beau exchange control of apple and potato (respectively).”

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Nothing particularly fancy there as I use 4 different core cases: ergative, dative, codative, accusative. They are ordered according to a hierarchy of control and causality, and when there are abstract complements, they normally take the last cases in the hierarchy (i.e. accusative in priority).

Is this a loglang thing? natlangs I speak (incl. english) use a preposition and the sentence’s valency is either 2 or 3, never something as high as 4.

There exists some rare instances of apparent genuine quadrivalency in natlangs, English for example has ⟪I bet you three dollars that they’ll win⟫. But in almost all cases of semantic quadrivalency, one or several adpositions are used instead, as in e.g. ⟪I trade you an apple for a pear⟫.

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My Nahaıwa isn’t highly concerned with naturalism; after some hesitations I’ve added back a 4th “co-dative” case for allowing quadrivalent predicates, but I’ll nevertheless try to keep them few in number, so that it would be fairly rarely needed. Nahaıwa doesn’t even have adpositions to begin with…

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Can you start a Nahaiwa thread ?

Nahaıwa doesn’t even have adpositions to begin with…

because now I’m curious.

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For the thread it will be another day I’m afraid as I don’t have the time now; but the gist of it is that core complements (specific to the verb’s meaning/definition) are marked with a small set of semantically opaque cases, while non-core, circumstantial complements (place, time, cause…) are expressed via the eventive case or the situative case, forming what might be compared to adverbs in English.
There do exist some natlangs which are reported to lack adpositions, but they seem fairly rare (if we ignore stuff like Chinese’s use of coverbs instead of adpositions).

On a second thought, there’s another device reminiscent of adpositions, but marked as prefix on the verb instead of being next to the nouns they govern, in a way much comparable to applicative voices, albeit not truely being applicatives in the strict sense. Stuff like conditionals and causatives are expressed this way.

Even if you say that Mandarin Chinese is using coverbs, we would still have postpositions.

我在床上吃飯
1SG at[coverb] bed on eat meal

“I eat on the bed.”

i suppose i should translate this into loratep, although i realize there could be many ways to say this…

jekBel jekBo teskood gaddeko pommeko.
jekBel jekBo teskood gaddeko saadak pommeke.
jekBel teskoom gaddeko saadak pommeke di/no jekBoke.
jekBel teskoom vek jekBoke ze gaddeke saadak pommeke.

this is surely not all the ways it’s just a few i could think of

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